Another Paradise Garage Website

[LuvLatins]

This place was not as good as the Saint yet so many people write about it. OK the bass was fantastic but it could not compete with the Sait IMO

http://garage.graphicproduction.org/

[conor l]

This place was not as good as the Saint yet so many people write about it. OK the bass was fantastic but it could not compete with the Sait IMO

http://garage.graphicproduction.org/

Well I suppose its swings and roundabouts. A lot of my Dj friends would be into the Garage stuff I play but not the Saint stuff. I got a lot of stick off a few of them for playing 'Set me free' recently in a club.

A large part of the reasoning behind opinions like this IMO is that due to the AIDS epidemic and the impact it had on the Saint (From my knowledge greater than it had on most big NY clubs, correct me if Im wrong), there are less people out there in high profile positions to glorify the Saint in the same way as the Garage.

Also the only resident at the Garage was Larry Levan, meaning he had all the limelight and as such was able to build a lot of hype. He also had a large body of production and remix work which was well known in the 80s and realistically, production work is the only way to gain widespread acclaim in the music industry.

[soundmanshorty]

Lets not forget

Well I suppose its swings and roundabouts. A lot of my Dj friends would be into the Garage stuff I play but not the Saint stuff. I got a lot of stick off a few of them for playing 'Set me free' recently in a club.

A large part of the reasoning behind opinions like this IMO is that due to the AIDS epidemic and the impact it had on the Saint (From my knowledge greater than it had on most big NY clubs, correct me if Im wrong), there are less people out there in high profile positions to glorify the Saint in the same way as the Garage.

Also the only resident at the Garage was Larry Levan, meaning he had all the limelight and as such was able to build a lot of hype. He also had a large body of production and remix work which was well known in the 80s and realistically, production work is the only way to gain widespread acclaim in the music industry.

About Richard Long and Al Firestein, cause if it wasent for that system they engineered, built & voiced for The Garage, the PG would not have been the legend it was aswell, Yes it was Larry aswell, im not taking anything away from his genius mind, skills, ears and talent, but if he did not have THAT Sound system to bring certain emotions, moods and inspirations out of him it would have been just regular night @ another club, and music would not have sounded or sold the numbers that it did cause of that room/system and what larry was able to create with the music cause of that system. Also lets not forget about how music was made to be played by Larry in that room on THAT system, that influenced so many.

I think this is over looked in many cases and they say it is only a DJ that makes the club, but it takes so much more than just a dj to make an amazing night / venue. Once its all together then yes its about the DJ he is the focus and makes a room known for a certain sound to bring the loyal fans ea week, but its not only the dj. It takes alot to make a room the IT space, not just one aspect like only a dj, and when you have it all it is magic, which both rooms had. Both The Saint and PG had it all, The Space, the concept and approach to building the space by the people/minds involved behing the scenes who built the rooms, this is Lacking today (but this is another post lol ) they had the DJs, Sound, Lighting and one extreamily important piece to the puzzle the People. But both rooms were incredible not one better than the other they were very different in to many ways you cant compare.

https://www.systemsbyshorty.com

[soundmanshorty]

The Saint

This place was not as good as the Saint yet so many people write about it. OK the bass was fantastic but it could not compete with the Sait IMO

http://garage.graphicproduction.org/

The Saint was a more open and airy sound to the PG, where the PG focused on that Bottom end. The PG was amazing but it was known by many for that Bass, but it was a completly diff concept and approach to the sound system design @ the Saint, The Saint was also designed with 360 degrees of coverage, no club had this design philosophy. It just was a diff aproach by Peter Sparr, some liked his approach and some prefered Richard and Al Firesteins approach and theories with sound. But there were rooms that people liked better than the Garage, and The Saint, The Zanzibar, The Loft & The Eldorado were a few of them that you would always hear mentioned in comparison to the PG Back in the Day, and all of them had and have great systems. So it all comes down to preference, sound is very subjective, and nobody is incorrect when sayin what they prefer with sound, its what one prefers at the end.

[gpdesigner]

This place was not as good as the Saint yet so many people write about it. OK the bass was fantastic but it could not compete with the Sait IMO

http://garage.graphicproduction.org/

Thanks for letting me in James . . . .
glad you like the site,. . .
I had this conversation with a gentalmen a few months back, seems he too was a fan of The Saint. He also said that he thought it was better than the Garage.

I asked him, and now I will ask you, . . . what made it better?

Ralph

[LuvLatins]

For me it was all about the atmosphere. The size and beauty of the way the saint was built is what did it for me.

The system was specifically designed to reproduce sound as recorded, the system was based on the dirtributed concept rather than a point source concept. The heart of the system was an Audionics Space and Image Composer that sepertated the music signal into the dome's quadrants, with 14 channels of amplification each. http://www.spaceandimagecomposer.com/

[conor l]

For me it was all about the atmosphere. The size and beauty of the way the saint was built is what did it for me.

The system was specifically designed to reproduce sound as recorded, the system was based on the dirtributed concept rather than a point source concept. The heart of the system was an Audionics Space and Image Composer that sepertated the music signal into the dome's quadrants, with 14 channels of amplification each. http://www.spaceandimagecomposer.com/

As someone who never went to either, Id like to think I have a fairly objective view on things. Ive read many people speak about both clubs and their preferences for either system or the type of crowd they mainly pulled but the one consistent thing people said was that the Saint, as an architectural structure and nightclub space, was the best New York has ever seen. That said I can offer no opinions on this as the closest I got to either club was the exterior of the buildings as they stand today.

I do like the music played at both clubs in different ways and for different reasons and can see how each would have major appeal

[LuvLatins]

The Saint cost 5 million dollars to construct in 1980 that today would be the equivalent of 19 million dollars. The space was not just the best in New York City but was the best in the world.

I remember standing outside waiting to go in and there were people that were members from France, Germany, etc. It was a world venue. I of course am speaking of 1980 through about 1985 after that because of AIDS it began falling apart.

And being totally honest, the membership was about $300 dollars just to get a membership and like $20 dollars for members to get in and LOTS more on special party nights. As a result the clientele of the Saint was mostly WHITE and well to do. For this reason many felt it was a private white club for rich kids and they believed it was a racist place.

On the other hand the Garage was also private but getting a membership card was not hard and I think entry was like 5 bucks. The crowd was mostly African American and was mostly "blue collar" The average kind of working person.

The BASS those amazing Bertha Speakers that Alex and later Larry and Richard Long designed were amazing. The dance floor at the garage was also a wood floor built upon sand. The sand gave the floor a kind of bounce and you could dance on it for hours without getting burnt out.

Each had their own respective plus and minuses but I still preferred the Saint. I must also say in fairness that I never really saw alot of sexual activity at the garage but the Third Floor of the Saint "Oh My God" I blush even now just thinking about the things that used to go on up there. But it was before AIDS and I have been told the same went on at 54. In the Garage I don't remember seeing that much sex they were more into the music (If that's possible) Jim jump in here would love to see what you and Jan think.

Oh one more point, and THIS IS A FACT. The MEN in the SAINT were without any question the best looking men I have ever seen in the world. At 2:00 am the shirts came off. The stars from the Saint projector were not the only thing that came out at 2:00 am. I can remember sitting on the bench inside the Dome and just grinning to myself and saying "Oh My God just look at these MEN" The grin was because forget the stereo type of the general public. Each was like a Greek statue. I could spend hours just looking at their bodies swaying in perfect sync with the music. And if the DJ was on his game, it was a journey that you cant explain.

Slowly, up up up a bit faster, just a bit. The mood slowly changing, and EVERY ONE Happy and Smiling. The effects of one great night at the Saint lasted several days. You would leave on Sunday at noon and for days walk around in a fog humming tunes that you had never heard before but were now part of your SOUL. Oh what a loss.

[gpdesigner]

For me it was all about the atmosphere. The size and beauty of the way the saint was built is what did it for me.

The system was specifically designed to reproduce sound as recorded, the system was based on the dirtributed concept rather than a point source concept. The heart of the system was an Audionics Space and Image Composer that sepertated the music signal into the dome's quadrants, with 14 channels of amplification each. http://www.spaceandimagecomposer.com/

Nice link . . . . . too bad the company folded into Rockford . . . I am sure if they could have held out a bit more, things would have been better. The good thing is the technology wasn?t lost . . .

I myself can?t speak for The Saint, I never went there, Well, . . . I did once, it was after the Garage closed. I went for an interview (looking for a job) The manager asked me what would make the Saint like the Garage, and I told him to fire his staff and hire all of us . . . . but other than that he couldn?t get there. (true story)

I know people have favorite hang outs, places that impressed them so much so, no other establishment can hold up. This is not new. . . . .
I am sure if you asked people who hung out at Studio 54 they would tell you Studio was the best club ever . . . . same with 1018/Roxy, Red Parrot, China Club, Palladium.
This is normal

So when people start to say that this place was better than that place, my question to them is . . . Why?

You started off with ?For me it was all about the atmosphere. The size and beauty of the way the saint was built . . . . . ?
This is a good answer, probably the best response that could ever be. And I would have to agree with you there, the Saint was designed well, I totally liked the catwalk around the club and I liked the stairway to the dome effect . . . . this was very well done.

I am sure people who frequented ?Limelight? got a kick out of a nightclub in an old church. I never went in myself but I did drive by it every now and again.

As for design . . the Garage was square . . . not much to look at. It was a box, some windows and a ramp. Not much you can do with that, it was a parking garage . . . . . still is.

So with that being said, we really can?t argue design atmosphere, the garage architecture was blan.

As far as the technical breakdown . . . . this is were we got into ?Apples and Oranges?.
Debating the sound technology of one club to another is like fighting an uphill battle.
The room at the garage was smaller than the Saint, the acoustical needs were much different. Can you imagine trying to put the Garage system in the Saint?
It wouldn?t work . . . .

I am not a sound guy so I can?t speak on the technicals of Audio reinforcement . .
I am however a lighting designer and this I can speak on intelligently, Alas, . . I already had a discussion with someone about Lighting at the Garage versus the Saint, so I would be reluctant to do it again seeing how I forgot on what forum that took place and don?t want to rehash.

To me the Garage was more than just the Burtha?s, . . . .
It was more than just the Sound or the Lighting . . . It was as I told the Manager of the Saint . . . it was the people.

See this is what makes a ?Place? great . . people. . . . . .
The Garage thrived because of humans . . and the fact that people found their way there. There was no advertising of the club, no radio spots, or billboard posters, no T.V. add or promotions. . It was all word of mouth, . . . . people.

When you ask someone ? hey you remember the Garage ? the first thing that pops into their minds is not the sound system. . . . and that is why the club lives on in memory.

So if you ask me which club is better, I would say which club do people remember?
Which club is talked about the most.

The rest is speculation.
Ralph

P.S. Of course this is all just one Garage x employee opinion . . . ( Bias )
:D

[LuvLatins]

Facsinating last line. "Which club to people remember" And you cant say its becasue the Saint was gay and therefore less known becasue so was the garage. Very interestig point. I do remember a dialuge about the lighting between the two. Ralph did you know Richard Sabala.

http://www.richardsabala.com/friend.htm

Tell us about the lighting system at the Garage please. Oh and welcome to the Forum

[conor l]

So if you ask me which club is better, I would say which club do people remember?
Which club is talked about the most.

I dont think you could use this as a credible basis as its very circumstancial. Just from what Ive gathered(Correct me if im wrong), I get the impression that the Saints demographic was hit very hard by AIDS and this was why the club closed. The Garage was a different story altogether and as such, there are far more people alive today to talk about it.

Also one other thing which may lend to the hype about the Garage is that many british djs, who are well known today, like Paul Oakenfold, Judge Jules, Norman Jay, Dave Piccioni all went to the Garage and brought back stories about the place which wouldve helped build the hype of the legend over there and as we all know the british dance music media love nothing more than a bit of hype. One thing I can imagine was the reason for this was that the Saint crowd AFAIK, was mostly gay and it isnt the sort of place you would come across unless you were on the gay scene or friends with someone who was. All of these british guys were straight so this would make sense why they wouldntve gone to the Saint, where as some one like Ian Levine did. This may all sound like crap but Im just throwing the idea out there.

At the end of the day, I like the music and djs of both places equally. They both seemed to have a magic which most clubs can only hope to strive for nowadays and in my eyes, I can imagine they were equally as important and had equally as much influence on the scene.

Look at their legacys. The Garage has had clubs such as The Shelter, Body and Soul, & The Sound Factory which were all pretty much created in an attempt to recreate the Garage vibe. Then the Saint has SAL, and parties like Souvenirs which are geared towards similar aims. It also set the blueprint for Heaven in London, which was the biggest gay club in England at the time(No idea if it still is).

The only difference Id say about people talking about it, is that since Levans death and the recent mass marketing of the Garage name, it seems trendy for djs to go on about Larry Levan and the Garage being your biggest influence without really understanding the club or its music.

Its a shitty situation at the end of the day, but hey Cest la vie!

[LuvLatins]

Another interesting point of view.

[conor l]

Another interesting point of view.

Yes but a long winded one. kinda went off on a tangent there!:o

[gpdesigner]

There are a lot of points to touch on here so let me pick one and work my way in-ward.

@ conor . . . .
are you seriously saying that the reason The Saint didn't get it fair due is because everyone died off and no-one was left to tell the tail I mean tale ?

Also one other thing which may lend to the hype about the Garage is that many british djs, who are well known today, like Paul Oakenfold, Judge Jules, Norman Jay, Dave Piccioni all went to the Garage and brought back stories about the place which wouldve helped build the hype of the legend over there and as we all know the british dance music media love nothing more than a bit of hype.

So what does this mean if none of these dj went to the Saint? . . . .
surely someone went to the Saint . . and talked about it.

One thing I can imagine was the reason for this was that the Saint crowd AFAIK, was mostly gay and it isnt the sort of place you would come across unless you were on the gay scene or friends with someone who was. All of these british guys were straight so this would make sense why they wouldntve gone to the Saint,

Conor . . . the Garage was Queen Central . . . . . but you know that.


Let's try this . . . .
The Garage helped launch a lot of careers of some now famous people . . .
we can't atribute thier stardom solely to the Garage but being on our stage did help tremendously.
Plus we had our own band, our own record lable, . . at least 4 music videos' were shot on our stage, and a scene from a movie was filmed in the Crystal room. Not to mention all the celebs that ran through the club almost every other week end. . . . .

These are just a few of the reasons the Garage is still talked about.
And even though the term has been perverted . . . let us not forget an entire style of music labeled "Garage".

A lot goes into building a ledgend . . . fact . . . fiction . . . little white lies.
But it's what's on peoples lips that make the Story . . .

Gotta run but I will do the lighting thing tomorrow . . if you heard it before stop me . . . I could truely put that time to other things, like making a Graphic for LuvLatins . . . . :D

Ralph

[LuvLatins]

I think we would all love to hear the lighting story.

I used to work the lights at MacArthur's a nice place on Long Island. The switch panel was made out of plastic so I used to break them off a lot in my excitement. I really got into it.

The real Lighting guy let me do it because he heard me play my Fuchi now they call them Cabassas http://www.silverbushmusic.com/cabassa.html

Kind of made a rattle type noise but even over the best sound system you could hear it. I loved playing this thing.

Now the funny part of the story.

I want you to all close your eyes and imagine this. Ralph being a lighting guy will love this.

I took my Cabassa and on the wooden surface on the top, I cut a rainbow reflective material that fit the top of my Cabassa perfectly.

I used to go an area of the dance floor where a high powered pin spot (while) beam light was going on and off

I let the white pin spot strike the top of the rainbow reflective material on the Cabassa and it would throw thousands of rainbow beams back off the top of the instrument and all over the dance floor.

The lighting and DJs guys loved it and I got in many places free. Gay of course.

Once I took it apart and went to a club called Decameron (Also on Long Island) it had a heart shaped dance floor and was full of Straight Italian men and women.

I took the Cabassa out of the hand bag of this girl I went with put it together and started playing it. Never went under a light but the asses tried to find me for almost 3 hours. When ever they were getting close I would stop playing it and move. It was so funny.

Like a cat and mouse game. And they never caught me (True Story)

To this day I laugh everytime I Think of it :D